Thursday, October 14, 2004

Debate III - The final chapter

Last night was the third and final debate. On the one hand, I wish they were going to debate some more. On the other, I've really had enough. For this debate, I did a running commentary with my friend Chuck. Chuck was nice enough to edit the commentary and intersperse quotes from the participants where appropriate. Here it is:

Chuck8:58:59 PM I've switched over to C-SPAN... looks like CSPAN2 is running something else
Brian8:59:08 PMI've got NBC here.
Chuck8:59:32 PM OK lets get on the same feed
Brian8:59:42 PMHang on.
Chuck9:00:14 PM OK I'm on NBC
Brian9:00:15 PMNow I have C-SPAN
Brian9:00:17 PMLOL
Chuck9:00:20 PM STAY THERE
Brian9:00:24 PMCourtesy of my dumb dog.
Brian9:00:31 PMShe sat on the remote.
Brian9:00:41 PMI'm staying.
Brian9:00:45 PM1 minute warning
Brian9:01:08 PMI think the debate is biased. More blue than red on the stage.
Brian9:01:14 PMIt's subliminal.
Chuck9:01:20 PM back on C-SPAN
Brian9:01:24 PMOK
Chuck9:01:28 PM Don't let your dog touch the remote
Chuck9:01:30 PM :-)
SCHIEFFER: ...Good evening ladies and gentlemen, I'm Bob Schieffer....
Chuck9:01:40 PM Good evening Bob.
Brian9:01:40 PMI've moved it out of her reach.
Brian9:01:58 PMDon't think I like the moderator already.
Brian9:02:02 PMDunno why.
Brian9:02:17 PMYeah, right.
Chuck9:02:34 PM This is all very standard from the other debates... same speech
Brian9:02:39 PMYup.
Brian9:03:13 PMWhat if one of them farts.
Chuck9:03:16 PM Bush switched to red tie
Chuck9:03:22 PM instead of blue
Brian9:03:22 PMYeah. Noticed that.
Brian9:03:34 PMThey look like they have the same tie.
Chuck9:03:36 PM practically identical suits
Brian9:03:46 PMHow will we tell them apart?
Chuck9:04:05 PM Bush is trying hard to look personable.
Q: Senator... will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up?
Chuck9:04:24 PM Kerry tips hat
Brian9:04:31 PMYeah.
KERRY: I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away. And, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be.

The measurement is not: Are we safer? The measurement is: Are we as safe as we ought to be?...
Chuck9:04:51 PM Kerry comes out swinging... no surprise there.
Brian9:05:03 PMYup. But not saying anything new.
Chuck9:05:20 PM there goes George... blinkblinkblink
Brian9:05:33 PMCheck his ears. Any receiver?
Chuck9:06:03 PM Kerry is repeating himself from earlier debates. No surprise there. Trying to stay on message. Invoking Reagan
Brian9:06:29 PMThere's the trademark smirk.
BUSH: ...I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice...
Brian9:06:42 PMThere's the 75% leadership lie again.
Chuck9:06:54 PM Bush is trying very hard to behave.
Brian9:06:59 PMFact checker disproved that one last time.
BUSH: ...My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance...
Chuck9:07:14 PM There's the nuisance line, we saw that coming
Brian9:07:34 PMInvokes Afghan elections. Neglects the fact that there are election fraud irregularities in Afghan.
Brian9:08:18 PMLying again.
Brian9:08:34 PMTrouble is, most people won't check the facts.
Brian9:08:35 PMGrrrrr.
Chuck9:08:38 PM true enough
KERRY: ...Six months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, this president was asked, Where is Osama bin Laden? He said, I don't know. I don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned...
Chuck9:08:35 PM Kerry calls Bush on his "I don't think about Osama much" line. Uses it against him
Q: We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us. Flu kills thousands of people every year.

Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen?
Chuck9:08:47 PM here comes the flu vaccine questions
Brian9:09:01 PMOh, here we go.
BUSH: ...Bob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated. And so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country. We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season...
Brian9:09:08 PMForeign drugs *bad*
Brian9:09:36 PMStrangely, Canada good.
Brian9:09:47 PMKind of a flip-flop there.
Chuck9:09:48 PM He's reaching out to the swing voters there
Chuck9:10:02 PM No indication on whether or not he'll follow through on that if elected
Chuck9:10:05 PM This is always true
BUSH: ...We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America. Vaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine...
Chuck9:10:16 PM Pulling in the litigation caps
Chuck9:10:20 PM Which is ridiculous
Chuck9:10:27 PM Has nothing to do with flu vaccine
Brian9:10:47 PMHope Kerry mentions that England had plenty of warning about this but we somehow missed out.
Brian9:11:06 PMKerry's answer is wandering to health care.
Chuck9:11:20 PM Bush trying not to smirk.
KERRY: ...Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country. You've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all. 82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch. 223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all...
Brian9:11:22 PMA bit of pandering to the elderly in AZ.
Chuck9:11:34 PM Yes, Kerry has appealed to the locals in each debate
Chuck9:11:40 PM It's good strategy
Brian9:11:49 PMBut he isn't answering the question.
Chuck9:11:58 PM This is true
Chuck9:12:00 PM He isn't
Chuck9:12:17 PM Kerry is focussing on Health Care but not saying why we don't have flu vaccine.
Brian9:12:23 PMEvery time he says "I have a plan" or "this President", take a drink.
BUSH: ...He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get. That costs the government $7,700 per family. If every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years.

It's an empty promise. It's called bait and switch.
KERRY: ...It's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan. He said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice...
Chuck9:13:07 PM Ooooh
Chuck9:13:08 PM Nice
Brian9:13:13 PMGot hit there.
Chuck9:13:13 PM Nice smack back at Bush
Chuck9:13:33 PM What is Bush doing with his mouth?
Chuck9:13:50 PM It's sort of part open and his tongue is doing something... weird
Brian9:13:51 PMBush looks like Ruprecht wetting himself in Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.
Chuck9:14:05 PM He's trying HARD not to make the same mistakes from the other debates
Brian9:14:16 PMHopefully he can make all new ones.
Q: Senator Kerry, a new question ... you pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year ... how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children?
Brian9:14:38 PMKerry is staying on message but not answering questions.
KERRY: ...we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get.

We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job. They just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days: $43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China...
Chuck9:15:09 PM He's starting to cover the answer now.
Brian9:15:13 PMYup.
Brian9:15:23 PMGood invocation of McCain in AZ
Chuck9:15:41 PM He's hitting Bush on the pork in the latest spending bill
Brian9:15:48 PMGood.
BUSH: ...He been a senator for 20 years. He voted to increase taxes 98 times. When they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times. He talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion...
Brian9:16:08 PMHere goes the raising taxes bit again.
Brian9:16:23 PMKerry better smack him on the distortions.
Chuck9:16:25 PM Bush coming back against Kerry's record. Again with the 98 votes to raise taxes. This is specious... FactCheck covers this
Brian9:16:32 PMYup.
Brian9:17:35 PMBit of spittle in the right corner of his mouth.
Chuck9:17:39 PM Kerry seems unfazed
Brian9:17:51 PMI think he wanted a shot to rebut, though.
Chuck9:17:55 PM Yeah
Brian9:18:08 PMOK Jobs of the 21st century.
Brian9:18:10 PMcentury.
Brian9:18:15 PMWhat are those?
Chuck9:18:24 PM Yeah he does have a glob of spit on the corner of his mouth
Chuck9:18:28 PM yech
BUSH: ...We've expanded trade adjustment assistance. We want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century... is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive...
Brian9:18:41 PMAnd what is the likelihood that a 50-something factory worker can train for one of them.
Brian9:18:57 PMAh. No child left behind.
Chuck9:19:04 PM Bush says education is the solution to the job issue
Chuck9:19:21 PM Kerry will no doubt raise unfunded no child left behind mandate.
Brian9:19:23 PMBush says he needs four more years "to continue to raise standards"
Brian9:19:30 PMUndoubtedly.
Chuck9:19:40 PM trade-adjustment money is what Bush says he offers
KERRY: ...Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country...
Brian9:20:04 PMGood Sopranos jab.
Chuck9:20:30 PM Good hit on fiscal responsibility.
Brian9:20:40 PMCosts are up. Jobs are down. Good point.
Chuck9:21:11 PM Bush wanted to rebut there.
Brian9:21:12 PMStill?
Brian9:21:23 PMYeah, well, Kerry wanted to rebut the last one.
Brian9:21:33 PMGuess that makes the moderation fair.
Brian9:22:09 PMQ: Is administration responsible for job losses.
KERRY: ...I don't blame [the administration] entirely for it. I blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it.

Outsourcing is going to happen. I've acknowledged that in union halls across the country. I've had shop stewards stand up and say, Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing? And I've looked them in the eye and I've said, No, I can't do that.

What I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible...
Chuck9:22:01 PM Kerry taking an earnest line here
Chuck9:22:06 PM I can't stop all outsourcing
Chuck9:22:16 PM But I can make the playing field as level as possible
Brian9:22:59 PMTalking about incentives for job creation at home.
Chuck9:23:01 PM Kerry's answer: no they aren't ENTIRELY responsible, but they do little to help people who've lost their jobs, and I will.
Brian9:23:31 PMBush's smirking and giggling looks to be a strategy.
Brian9:24:01 PMHe's also reacting as though Kerry is ridiculous in everything he says.
BUSH: ...You know, he talks to the workers. Let me talk to the workers.

You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed.

If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit. That's money in your pocket...
Chuck9:24:20 PM Bush citing the tax cuts as help to the workers who lost their jobs.
Brian9:24:20 PMTalking taxes. Not even related to job losses.
Brian9:24:29 PMAh. Is that the tie in?
Chuck9:24:32 PM yes
Chuck9:24:52 PM Back to the 98 times
Brian9:24:53 PM"Not tell citizens how to live their lives"
Brian9:25:11 PMDoes that include gay marriage and abortion?
KERRY: ...Bob, anybody can play with these votes. Everybody knows that.

I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times. I broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for. I voted for IRA tax cuts. I voted for small-business tax cuts...
Brian9:25:41 PMKerry isn't going far enough on the vote thing.
Chuck9:25:59 PM Bush sticking to the vote thing, and tying in liberal thing
Brian9:26:10 PMI so want to smack him.
Brian9:26:20 PMOoooh. Gay marriage question.
Chuck9:26:24 PM Gay marriage... do you believe homosexuality is a choice?
Chuck9:26:40 PM GB: don't know. But people should be treated with tolerance and dignity.
Brian9:27:06 PMSanctity of marriage. Protect it as an institution.
Brian9:27:15 PMActivist judges.
Chuck9:27:17 PM constitutional amendment, activist judges
KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it...
Brian9:28:21 PMBringing in Cheney's daughter as gay.
Chuck9:28:35 PM Kerry saying -- it is NOT a choice.
Brian9:28:41 PMBush appealed to his base. Kerry is appealing to his.
Brian9:29:13 PMKerry says marriage is between man and woman.
Chuck9:29:58 PM Catholic archbishops say it is a sin to vote for Kerry, Kerry's reaction.
Brian9:30:15 PMRespects views, but disagrees with them.
Brian9:30:26 PMCan't legislate his religion.
Chuck9:30:49 PM Very good response.
Brian9:30:53 PMYes.
Brian9:31:13 PMOooooh. Good Bush quote.
Brian9:31:32 PMNot a Catholic President, but a President who happens to be Catholic."
Chuck9:31:42 PM Invoking Kennedy
Chuck9:31:49 PM Respecting the rights of others.
Brian9:31:51 PMBush can't hit back on it either.
Brian9:32:05 PM"Culture of life"
Chuck9:32:29 PM He's going to call for abortion reduction.
Brian9:32:30 PMReduce abortions.
Chuck9:32:39 PM My opponent voted against partial birth abortion
Chuck9:32:47 PM saw that coming
Brian9:32:50 PMHe is going to ding Kerry for voting against partial birth abortions.
Brian9:32:52 PMYup.
Brian9:33:37 PMShould have allowed a rebuttal for the factual distortion.
Chuck9:33:40 PM new question to Bush, Health Insurance is out of control?
Chuck9:33:46 PM Bush is about to blame lawyers
Brian9:33:54 PMWho is responsible.
BUSH: ...I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts. These are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings. Businesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis. But this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care.

Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform...
Chuck9:34:30 PM Promoting health savings account, the "ownership society"
Chuck9:34:39 PM Here come the lawsuits
Brian9:34:42 PMYup.
Chuck9:34:44 PM I knew that was coming
Brian9:34:46 PMSaw that coming.
Chuck9:35:02 PM Always thinking of the lawsuits and never the victims
Chuck9:35:06 PM Big business stooge
Brian9:35:09 PMYup.
Chuck9:35:29 PM Health care is technologically behind
Brian9:35:44 PMAnd how do we fix this?
Brian9:35:56 PMSo, is he in favor of generic drugs coming to market.
Brian9:36:08 PMThat's anti-pharmaceutical corps.
Chuck9:36:12 PM Kerry --> it's Bush's fault.
Brian9:36:20 PMCanada issue.
Chuck9:36:24 PM Bush against medications from Canada
Chuck9:36:43 PM Bush against bulk purchasing of medications via Medicare.
Brian9:36:44 PMBulk purchasing issue as well.
Chuck9:37:12 PM Bush gave a $139 B of your money to drug companies
Brian9:37:38 PMWhy does he get to choose a rebuttal?
Chuck9:37:53 PM Bob gets to choose
Chuck9:38:06 PM Kerry defends his record.
Brian9:38:09 PMRight, but Bush interjected over him and he acquiesced.
Chuck9:38:16 PM Bush trying not to smirk
Chuck9:38:37 PM I gotta hand it to Kerry, he is VERY cool and collected.
Brian9:38:49 PMRight, but maybe too cool.
Chuck9:39:00 PM Q Kerry: how are you going to pay for all these health care promises.
Brian9:39:16 PMI can see Bush's smirking and giggling and "folksiness" resonating very well with undecided voters.
Brian9:39:22 PMWe hate him, so it grates
Brian9:39:52 PMBut he is projecting an aura of knowledgeability even in the face of his ignorance.
KERRY: ...Here's what I do: We take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered. And in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice.

I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them...

...In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early. And most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees. Now, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis. It works. And I'm going to offer it to America.
Chuck9:40:18 PM Kerry giving a lot of details here. Will this confuse voters?
Brian9:40:26 PMI think so.
Brian9:40:48 PMBush is going for simple and then making it appear as if Kerry is out of his mind.
Chuck9:41:11 PM Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Brian9:41:17 PMWhat was that?
Chuck9:41:32 PM Bush calls into question major news organizations analysis of his statements on Kerry's plan
Brian9:41:32 PMHe started to make a dig and then said "never mind"
Chuck9:41:48 PM Yeah, that was deliberate
Brian9:42:02 PMRight, but it didn't seem intelligible.
BUSH: ...I think government-run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice.

Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls.

And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care. They have poor-quality health care...
Chuck9:42:31 PM Here comes the fear line vis-a-vis government health care.
KERRY: The president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality.

Now, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining. Maybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare. He doesn't adequately fund it...
Chuck9:42:47 PM LOL!
Brian9:43:03 PMGood response.
Chuck9:43:11 PM Kerry THIS must be why Bush won't fund government health programs. Because the quality will go down!
Brian9:43:34 PMBush - we are meeting commitments.
Brian9:43:43 PMVeterans health care is very good
Chuck9:44:06 PM Q Bush : social security -- savings accounts will cost 1$ trillion, what happens? how?
Brian9:44:41 PMSeniors today will get their checks.
Brian9:44:50 PMPeople of the future will not.
Brian9:44:56 PMUnless we do something.
Chuck9:44:56 PM Basically
Chuck9:45:00 PM yeas
Chuck9:45:24 PM He hasn't answered the question
Brian9:45:35 PMYup.
Brian9:45:52 PMWell, it's going to come from "coming together"
Brian9:46:11 PMKerry -
Brian9:46:21 PMBush plan is an invitation to disaster.
Brian9:46:40 PMBenefits would have to cut benefits by 25 to 40 percent
Chuck9:46:52 PM Kerry invokes bipartisan Congressional Budet Office assessment of the Social Security savings accounts plan
Brian9:47:03 PMKerry points out that Bush didn't answer the question
Chuck9:47:05 PM Kerry President is not saying where is the money coming from??
Q: ...Senator Kerry, you have just said you will not cut benefits.

Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate.

What he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age. We may have to take some other reform. But if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve?
Chuck9:47:55 PM Q KERRY: Greenspan said Social Security cant pay , cut benefits, raise retirement age. How can you promise no changes?
Chuck9:48:26 PM Kerry says that was what the surplus was supposed to be for.
Brian9:48:29 PMUh-oh. I think he could get dinged on that.
Brian9:48:55 PMHe is now saying that the surplus went to funding the tax cuts.
Chuck9:49:11 PM Yes that and the war
Brian9:49:12 PMNow Kerry is not answering the question.
Chuck9:49:39 PM He's bringing up jobs again.
Brian9:49:47 PMBut he also said rolling back the tax cut is how he is going to pay for the new programs
Brian9:49:52 PMDouble dip.
Chuck9:50:04 PM Unless he thinks there's enough to pay for it all.
Brian9:50:22 PMBush is not answering either.
Chuck9:50:31 PM Bush: Kerry giving more of the same. He's voted to tax Social Security Bush defending tax cuts.
Brian9:50:37 PMBush claims that most of the tax cut went to the middle class.
Brian9:50:39 PMNot true.
Chuck9:50:44 PM Right
Brian9:50:44 PMCalls tax system more fair.
Chuck9:50:50 PM FactCheck .org
Brian9:51:22 PM1.9 mil jobs over 13 months.
Chuck9:51:32 PM Kerry wanted to rebut
Brian9:51:52 PMPlease ding him on the fact that the new jobs are not even keeping pace with the people entering the work force.
Chuck9:51:56 PM Q BUSH: immigration. 8000 people cross borders every day illegally. How do you see this, what do we do about it?
Brian9:52:06 PMIncrease border patrol.
Chuck9:52:11 PM new equipment
Chuck9:52:15 PM unmanned vehicles
Chuck9:52:18 PM continue to do so
BUSH: ...And so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs. ...
Brian9:52:55 PMOh boy. Here comes the temp worker card.
Chuck9:53:08 PM not familiar with this issue
Brian9:53:20 PMLet's create a subjugated working class. Serfs essentially.
Brian9:53:48 PMLet immigrants come in and do the lowest wage jobs.
Chuck9:54:29 PM tax cuts disappeared into the rising costs of everything else.
Brian9:54:34 PMYup.
Brian9:54:51 PMMiddle class tax burden up. Wealthy down.
Brian9:55:05 PMCant be done.
Brian9:55:23 PMSecuring the border, that is.
Chuck9:55:32 PM Earned legalization program.
Brian9:55:56 PMMore discrediting of Kerry.
Chuck9:56:33 PM Kerry sticking by his claim borders not secure
Brian9:56:40 PMKerry's response - No. Bush is wrong.
Chuck9:56:48 PM Q Kerry: gap growing between rich and poor
Brian9:56:56 PMRaise min wage?
Chuck9:56:56 PM raise minimum wage?
Brian9:57:07 PMKerry says yes.
Chuck9:57:10 PM Kerry: YES. Republicans won't let us vote on it.
Brian9:57:16 PMRepublican leadership is blocking it.
Brian9:57:31 PMRaise it to $7 per hour over time.
Chuck9:57:46 PM Back to the tax cuts
Brian9:57:49 PMYup.
KERRY: ...If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their families would earn another $3,800 a year.

The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire.

One percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families...
Chuck9:57:59 PM Nice one there
Brian9:58:04 PMBit of a jab there.
Chuck9:58:12 PM Tired of politicians who talk family values but don't value families.
Brian9:58:19 PMHe's pandering for the women vote though.
Chuck9:59:04 PM Bush brings it back to education.
Chuck9:59:14 PM Go out and get educated and get a better job, dumbass.
Brian9:59:17 PMAh. The key to minimum wage is to work on education.
Chuck9:59:21 PM Right
Brian9:59:40 PMCannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem.
Chuck9:59:55 PM Don't raise minimum wage. Educate the people.
Brian10:00:12 PMThat's right. Keep the wages low for those guest workers.
Chuck10:00:23 PM Strong to tie education to jobs
Chuck10:00:48 PM Q BUSH: do you want to overturn roe v wade?
Chuck10:01:04 PM GB: no litmus test for judges. Period.
Chuck10:01:38 PM JK: Right of choice is constitutional. President wants to undo it.
Chuck10:01:47 PM Long way to go in terms of fairness.
Chuck10:01:57 PM Appealing to minorities.
Chuck10:02:11 PM JK: No Child left Behind UNDERFUNDED
Brian10:02:16 PMright
Chuck10:02:17 PM Tie it to people on the ground in AZ
BUSH: ...only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough...
Brian10:03:02 PMMore with the liberal labels from W
Chuck10:03:12 PM Bush: he is misleading you. Lots of money going in. Tossing liberal label around
KERRY: You don't measure it by a percentage increase. Mr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done.

Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget.

Now, that's not in my gut. That's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut.

$89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs. You be the judge.
Chuck10:03:31 PM JK: percentage increase has nothing to do with it, ARE YOU GETTING THE JOB DONE?
Chuck10:03:57 PM Inadequate funding to No Child Left Behind but big cut to the wealthy. You judge.
Brian10:04:16 PMAny relief to the guard people and stop loss?
Chuck10:04:18 PM Q KERRY: Is there a relief that can be offered to soldiers in field (backdoor draft)?
Chuck10:04:36 PM JK: repeated callups & stopless indication of the bad judgment of GB
Chuck10:04:45 PM JK: we are overextended
Brian10:05:07 PMKerry wants to add troops to active duty,
Chuck10:05:08 PM JK: 90% of our military wrapped up in Iraq, add two active duty divisions, double special forces
Brian10:05:19 PMNot saying how we will get people to enlist.
Chuck10:05:29 PM Bring national guard home, use them HERE for homeland security
Brian10:05:39 PMReal alliances.
Chuck10:05:47 PM Run a foreign policy such that we are strongest when working in real alliances.
Brian10:05:49 PMDenigrate rebuttal upcoming?
Chuck10:05:59 PM Most likely
Chuck10:06:23 PM President didn't pull in allies, didn't choose war as a last resort, didn't plan adequately
BUSH: The best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing. We'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year...
Chuck10:06:29 PM HEH
Brian10:06:32 PMAh!
Brian10:06:43 PMBest way to succeed is to win.
Chuck10:06:49 PM Succeed in Iraq, and that will relieve our forces.
Chuck10:07:03 PM Essentially, it is up to the troops to relieve themselves.
Brian10:07:08 PMMorale is apparently high.
Chuck10:07:09 PM Somehow that sounds wrong.
BUSH: ...In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country...
Chuck10:07:20 PM here comes global test BS
Chuck10:07:31 PM misinterpreting it yet again.
Brian10:07:46 PMIn spite of clarifications subsequent.
Chuck10:08:00 PM and here they come again
KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us.

But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world...
Chuck10:08:23 PM We must pass a truth standard... don't we want legitimacy?
Chuck10:08:36 PM GB : Kerry voted against the gulf war.
Brian10:08:56 PMKerry needs to attack Bush in more plain language.
Chuck10:09:09 PM Q BUSH: why wont you encourage congress to vote to for assault weapon ban
Brian10:09:16 PMClaims he did.
Brian10:09:18 PMLie.
Chuck10:09:24 PM GB: I tried to, but I was told bill wouldn't move.
Brian10:09:33 PMAnother lie.
Brian10:09:56 PMCrack down on crimes with guns.
Chuck10:10:13 PM Kerry identifies with hunters and gun owners
Brian10:10:14 PMI brought my gun to church with me.,
Brian10:10:23 PMWhen I was an altar boy...
Brian10:10:27 PM :-)
KERRY: ...If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes", I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight".

And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen. We'd have won what Bill Clinton won.
Chuck10:11:11 PM Wow
Chuck10:11:14 PM Nice punch there
Chuck10:11:23 PM I would have fought
Brian10:11:31 PMInvoking Clinton.
Brian10:11:39 PMNeed for affirmative action?
Chuck10:11:42 PM Q KERRY: do we still need affirmative action?
Chuck10:12:08 PM JK: no regrettably, not far enough along to get rid of affirmative act. Oh and BTW, it's Bush's fault.
Chuck10:12:15 PM He's certainly sticking to message
Chuck10:13:24 PM JK racism still a problem. We fought to reform Affirmative Action back in 90's
Chuck10:13:53 PM GB hasn't met with NAACP, black congressional caucus, hasn't met with civil rights folks. How can you reach out if you don't do that?
Brian10:14:14 PMI tell you, if I wasn't commenting on this, I'd have turned it off.
Brian10:14:29 PMNeither man is interesting.
Chuck10:14:38 PM GB: that's not true, I met with black congressional caucus at the white house. Quotas are bad, back to education. Affirmative Action is improving education for the poor.
Brian10:14:39 PMAgain with education.
Chuck10:15:05 PM yes
Chuck10:15:09 PM ownership society
Brian10:15:43 PMOooooh. Faith questions.
Chuck10:15:45 PM Q BUSH: how does faith play in your decisions?
Brian10:16:00 PMFaith is personal. Bull!
Chuck10:16:05 PM GB: I pray a lot. My faith is very personal. I pray for strength, wisdom, family, for the troops.
Chuck10:16:18 PM But people should worship as they want to or not.
Chuck10:16:30 PM Freedom of religion.
Chuck10:16:37 PM Pray and religion sustain me.
Chuck10:17:14 PM armies of compassion?
Chuck10:17:22 PM AH. Faith based initiatives.
Chuck10:17:38 PM Freedom on the march again.
Brian10:17:40 PMGod wants people to be free.
Brian10:18:12 PMLOL
Brian10:18:21 PMNative American blessings.
Chuck10:18:32 PM JK: Love the lord, and love your neighbor
Chuck10:18:43 PM JK: We have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do
Brian10:18:51 PMHaves vs. have nots.
Chuck10:19:00 PM Unequal school system. One for people who have and one who have not.
Chuck10:19:22 PM Kerry clearer on respect to atheists.
Brian10:20:03 PMAnd clearer in showing how faith can work for the good of the country.
Chuck10:19:46 PM Q KERRY: our unity after 9/11 has melted away. Will you set a priority on bringing us back together?
Chuck10:20:26 PM JK --> President did a terrific job right after 9/11 did a great job uniting then
Chuck10:20:29 PM but not anymore
Brian10:21:09 PMKerry tries to find the common ground.
KERRY: ...And if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together...
Chuck10:21:29 PM JK: I have tried to find the common ground. Most significant effort (openly, not secret, not ideologically driven)
Chuck10:21:45 PM Campaign finance reform with John McCaine.
Brian10:21:45 PMMentioned his friend McCain three times.
Chuck10:22:14 PM Yes
Chuck10:22:22 PM Bush, No Child Left Behind reached out to Democrats.
Brian10:22:22 PMinteresting. Now Bush is invoking Ted Kennedy.
Chuck10:22:53 PM Yeah, 10 minutes ago it was the lib from MA, and now it's I wanted to work with Kennedy.
Brian10:23:24 PMKerry should have gotten to rebut that one.
Chuck10:23:46 PM Last Question: what is most important thing u have learned from strong women in your life?
Brian10:23:40 PMFluff question.
Brian10:23:45 PMWhat a waste to end the debate.
BUSH: To listen to them. (LAUGHTER) To stand up straight and not scowl. (LAUGHTER)

...when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech." I said, "OK, you've got a deal." Fortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal. And she's out campaigning along with our girls. And she speaks English a lot better than I do. I think people understand what she's saying.

But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush. I can't tell you how lucky I am. When I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue. O'Neill said, Come on over. I think you'll find somebody who might interest you. So I said all right. I walked over there. There was only four of us there. And not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight.
Chuck10:23:58 PM GB: stand up straight, don't scowl, listen to them
Chuck10:24:09 PM love my wife and daughters.
Brian10:24:24 PMSo, he broke his word to his wife.
Chuck10:24:37 PM wife campaigns for me, she speaks English better than I do.
Chuck10:24:47 PM This makes him look humble.
Brian10:24:50 PMMet my wife at a barbecue.
Brian10:24:57 PM*Hurk!*
Chuck10:25:08 PM Recounting how he met his wife.
KERRY: Well, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up. (LAUGHTER) And some would say maybe me moreso than others. (LAUGHTER) But I can take it. (LAUGHTER)

...if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run. And she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing.

And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember: integrity, integrity, integrity." Those are the three words that she left me with.

And my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong.

They also kick me around. They keep me honest. They don't let me get away with anything. I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that.

And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time. I've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters. He's a great father. And I think we're both very lucky.
Chuck10:25:25 PM JK joking about Theresa's wealth
Brian10:25:32 PMKerry being surprisingly human
Chuck10:25:44 PM Well it is a personal question
Brian10:25:45 PMAlso mentioned his Mom
Chuck10:26:35 PM closing compliment to bush'
Chuck10:26:37 PM interesting
Chuck10:26:44 PM Closing statements.
Brian10:26:47 PMWhy does Kerry have to close first every time?
Chuck10:26:53 PM probably the deal
Brian10:27:02 PMHe ought to get the last word once.
Chuck10:27:28 PM JK --> we are divided. We need to work together. We CAN do better.
Chuck10:27:46 PM JK --> I will not allow a country to have a veto over our security
Chuck10:27:53 PM JK is invoking EVERYTHING
Chuck10:28:01 PM veterans, Vietnam, fait
Chuck10:28:04 PM faith
Brian10:28:06 PMMajor pandering response.
Chuck10:28:25 PM I think he looks almost noble. Now Bush's turn.
Chuck10:29:10 PM GB --> invoking optimism
Chuck10:29:50 PM armies of compassion again
Brian10:29:53 PMYup.
Brian10:29:57 PMFirm resolve.
Chuck10:30:00 PM never waver
Brian10:30:02 PMNever waver.
Chuck10:30:03 PM interesting
Brian10:30:04 PMLOL
Chuck10:30:15 PM We haven't heard him mention mixed messages and wavering this time
Brian10:30:16 PMSpread freedom and liberty.
Brian10:30:19 PMNope.
Chuck10:30:21 PM Public is tired of hearing it.
Brian10:30:26 PMPlayed that card out.
Chuck10:30:32 PM Interesting debate
Brian10:30:38 PMBoring debate.
Brian10:30:59 PMKerry didn't counterpunch where he needed to
Chuck10:31:06 PM a mostly positive closing for both candidates...
Brian10:31:11 PMYup.
Chuck10:31:13 PM less fireworks at the end
Brian10:31:47 PMNot sure why the timber company didn't come up again.
Chuck10:32:00 PM too obscure for the average viewer?
Brian10:32:18 PMBut it would have been an opportunity to point out how Bush had lied.
Chuck10:33:10 PM Okay, I'm not watching the spin room. Shutting off TV.
Brian10:33:16 PMRighto.
Chuck10:33:24 PM Callin commentary usually pisses me off anyway.
Brian10:33:31 PMYup.
Chuck10:33:32 PM So, first impression. Clear winner?
Brian10:33:36 PMNo.
Chuck10:33:39 PM I agree
Chuck10:33:45 PM The debate was pretty even.
Brian10:33:51 PMThis is the first one I really felt was a draw.
Chuck10:34:09 PM I felt that Bush did a much better job of controlling his emotions and not allowing himself to look like a moron.
Brian10:34:13 PMYup.
Chuck10:34:27 PM it was unusual to see him look presidential, that can only help him
Chuck10:34:38 PM Kerry's performance was very smooth
Brian10:34:42 PMI think he went back to being more folksy.
Brian10:34:48 PMBush did.
Chuck10:34:45 PM I didn't notice any flubs. Did you?
Brian10:34:50 PMNope.
Chuck10:34:51 PM Right
Chuck10:34:57 PM At times he did
Chuck10:35:06 PM That personal question I think helped Kerry
Brian10:35:12 PMYes.
Chuck10:35:13 PM It made him seem more personable.
Brian10:35:18 PMAbsolutely.
Chuck10:36:42 PM However all the answers are in conflict (no surprise) and nothing new was said (no surprise there either). The candidates should have by now communicated their positions.
Brian10:36:52 PMYup.
Chuck10:38:52 PM No clear winner, I agree. And the opinion of the wingnuts will be that Bush won because he didn't act like an ass.
Brian10:39:33 PMit's sad that we have such lowered expectations of our commander
Chuck10:39:37 PM Right